Nolli Waterman and Bryan Habana – Taking Opportunities In all Walks of Life

During a busy Cathay/HSBC Hong Kong Sevens 2023, HSBC brought along a full team of well-known rugby ambassadors – We caught up with former England and World Champion Nolli Waterman and former Springbok and RWC 2007 winner Bryan Habana to discuss a wide range of topics; from the growth of the women’s game, changing mindsets, the future of Rugby Sevens, and about grabbing opportunities when they come your way!

Also in recognition of the women’s sevens being played at the iconic tournament for the first time, the HSBC team for its first time had more female members than male representatives. 

Grab a coffee or something stronger and sit back to enjoy the read.

How Does It Feel To Be Back At The Cathay/HSBC Hong Kong Sevens?

Nolli Waterman: From my perspective, to see Hong Kong back in full swing, and the fact that the women are running out for the first time on the HSBC World Series is super special. There are not many things in my career that I feel like I wish I’d been able to do but on reflection, I’m feeling a little bit jealous of the girls.

It’s such an iconic stadium and to watch the girls here, to hear the crowd roar & to listen to everyone talking about how awesome they all are, is super special. 

This is the one that we’ve kind of been waiting for and I think it’s taken incremental steps, but yeah, it’s very special and I have no doubt that all of the players are absolutely buzzing.

Future of World Rugby Sevens Series – Nolli Waterman and Bryan Habana

It is a historic weekend and we’re still waiting for confirmation of the stadiums for next year for the new format of the World Sevens Series. Where do you think the sevens game goes from here? Obviously, there’s still a lot of excitement and there’s still a lot of work to do, but it’s such a unique brand and sport.

Nolli Waterman: I think it’s just awesome to see this tournament is back in full flow, as with all of the other tournaments over the last couple of seasons. 

Even though the decisions haven’t necessarily been confirmed and announced by World Rugby, there are so many resources going into making it a special one and really growing it and developing it. It’s such a huge part of the global game and Rugby Sevens has an incredible reach. 

Asia is a really great example, even though it’s not necessarily a stronghold for rugby. Fifteens and Sevens are a really brilliant vehicle to take the game into different territories, so I just love the fact that it’s got lots of people talking about it. 

I’m genuinely excited to see where it goes and how it’s developed. We’ve just had the announcement  Spain (Madrid) has been announced as a stop next season and that’s exciting from my perspective

The big part for me is the parity between the men’s and the women’s games and the fact that we can do it globally.

Bryan Habana: The beauty about sevens is that it’s a very easy entry point into a very complex sport. In XVs there are a lot of rules and regulation changes and a lot of debate in a lot of areas. 

In Sevens,  you just look at the cultural diversity, the gender diversity, the passionate enjoyment, it really is an easy entry point. And a lot of these people in the crowd will never sit through a full-on rugby test match, but they love coming to sevens. I think that is something uniquely special though.

World Rugby is making decisions to align the sport with a more operationally structural and functional environment where you’re not only giving the women the same platform as the men but also then providing the operational opportunity to align with the Olympics which was a massive turning point for the game.

Something like the Challenger Series, which hopefully will be given more clarity and description next season, will then give teams the opportunity to continuously compete. I think that this already opens up diversity, both for the men and the women in terms of ranking and also gives parity and visibility equally to both the men and women, which I think is absolutely brilliant.

So these decisions are being made, hopefully with a lot of input from all the respective silos, the players, the unions, the cities, the partners like HSBC, but it is being hopefully done in a progressive manner for the continued growth of the game with inclusivity, both from the fans and supporters.

Hong Kong’s Mba Oyana Julia Mibuy takes a selfie with fans on day one of the Cathay/ HSBC Hong Kong Sevens at Hong Kong Stadium on 31 March, 2023 in Hong Kong, China. Photo credit: Mike Lee – KLC fotos for World Rugby

Gender Parity in Rugby Sevens

You both touched on the diversity and growth of the game – especially the Women’s game. What was the biggest resistance to growing the women’s game in your opinion – there’s momentum and there’s optimism now. So what would you say is the biggest shift you’ve seen from playing to where you are now, in trying to promote the women’s game?

Bryan Habana: I think firstly, education is incredibly important. But there is an unlearning process of a mindset that has been very rudimentary in understanding or thinking that this particular game is only meant for a certain type of stereotypical person. And I think fundamentally having to unlearn that, and accept that there are some phenomenal women athletes that are doing some incredibly phenomenal things out on the pitch and that they also love the game. 

For me, the beauty of rugby is the fact that it is truly extremely diverse. Whether you’re small or big, tall or short, fast or slow. It really is this inclusive environment (sevens, probably not so much so in the physical perspective).

I think for the game of rugby to grow progressively, we need to allow women to be given platforms where they can showcase their incredible skill and their ability, and I think a lot of men have certain lenses through which they look – particularly around the physical attributes of the game of rugby that comes from a very historical legacy. 

I think what we saw in New Zealand with the Women’s Rugby World Cup 2021, what we have been seeing on the HSBC World Seven Series over the last 10-15 years, and what we saw with Australia winning the 2016 Olympics, and then the Tokyo Olympics. 

It’s absolutely incredible. And then you have the partners like HSBC, Emirates, MasterCard – all of these massive institutions that are really driving the narrative of giving a similar platform, which I think is absolutely brilliant.

Nolli Waterman: It’s about exposure, at both ends of the spectrum, I played 12 of my 15 years as an England player as an amateur. We had some of the world’s best players but it was at times behind closed doors, because people didn’t know that we were there and what we were achieving, and quite surprised when they heard about it. 

When they watched, they were really amazed and absolutely blown away by the skill level and the talent and also the people that were playing the game. And not just the players, but the characters that make up a rugby team. I think the exposure through the media, so whether that’s TV coverage, whether that’s through the press, exposure in tournaments – actually showcasing it at the elite level. 

When you’ve got bums in seats and stadiums, and the men and the women run out at the same time, naturally, fans get the opportunity to see it without even having to go out of their way to find it. That ease of opportunity is huge.

The other side of it, is exposure at the grassroots level. Here in Hong Kong, HSBC has begun with Try Rugby, and 55,000 young people have tried the sport. It’s not looking at rugby to be only contact rugby, it’s the fact that it can be touch rugby, it can be tag rugby, it can be mixed. 

Try Rugby – HSBC support the youth rugby program in Hong Kong

To be able to expose young boys and young girls together to learn about the sport of rugby instantly engages them with the fact that it’s a sport for everybody. And it tells that story. And it has that narrative of, well, if we can both do it here, then we can both do it at the top level if we want to if we have those aspirations. 

Fundamentally, Bryan and I were really fortunate that we were quite good at what we did. And we had the drive and determination and aspiration to go on and represent our countries and do that. But I played rugby, because I loved it. I was very fortunate to play at the top. When I see my teammates, they are still some of my closest friends, like I’ve still got some of my best rugby memories of playing for minor variants of the game.

Getting the key decision makers on board to understand that they have a role, and a sphere of influence, can make a huge difference in telling the story for women and for the public to understand what we’re what it’s about. 

That’s partners, that’s World Rugby, that’s the media. These women are full-time athletes, it’s their job, of course, they’re going to be good at it, you know? And how can we make sure that that all comes together? 

I remember for years being made to feel that I should be grateful for going and playing on a world stage. I was thinking, I should be playing there, this is where the best of the best are. 

I think we are moving forward and just looking at society. I think gender equality is up there as one of our sustainable development goals – we know that we need to do that to support and tell that story and drive the narrative that it’s going to help rugby at a greater level.

Participation is key at all levels but also having role models. Asia actually has probably more leaders of rugby unions than anywhere else – the Philippines, Lao, and Cambodia all have female Presidents of their unions. 

Nolli Waterman: Getting women on the boards is getting women in leadership roles. We only have one female head coach in the Women’s World Series and that needs to change.

We’ve heard of opportunities and we’re talking about all of the jobs around the game – the coaches, the medics, the tournament organisers – all of those roles. I’m genuinely so passionate about it because that’s where I want to see more female representation. That’s where it needs them to believe that this is something that they can do and still be part of something super special.

Bryan Habana: The visibility – so when you put on a TV and you see women’s rugby being played with the sevens or fifteens. You look at the hero’s welcome that the Australian Sevens team had after winning gold at the Rio Olympics and in NZ last year as examples.

It’s also the players that have come before and formed a platform or the foundations on which the game has been built. It’s around breaking down mindsets, and then educating and again, giving the appropriate respect to the person doing their craft. 

I think those minds are still changing, and as for the younger generation, like with the HSBC Try Rugby program, and in Asia (in Dubai), HSBC has helped introduce rugby and it’s become a part of the curriculum in the UAE, so there are 5000 kids on a yearly basis going through this program playing rugby. 

So it does come down to learning and educating and trying to break the stereotypical mindsets in a world that is evolving so quickly, so rapidly, and that if you’re not going to allow that change to happen, you’re going to be left behind.

Photo Credit: Bryan Habana – HSBC ambassadors – Cathay/HSBC Hong Kong Sevens 2023

Nolli Waterman: That’s really interesting, as I’ve been really fortunate to come in as the first female ambassador with HSBC, instantly training from a comparative perspective with the boys. We have a fantastic relationship and I work alongside the guys and am treated no differently.

What’s been really important is the storytelling from people like Brian O’Driscoll and Bryan Habana – the men that I work with that are looked up to as role models and as superstars. They are saying and putting it on their socials, about working with me, talking about the women’s game, telling the stories and celebrating the players, so naturally male fans will think it’s normal and say “I’m gonna have a look at this. I’m gonna watch it.”

Role models and CEOs’ are in game-changing roles that can change perceptions or make decisions. And that’s what I genuinely loved about this opportunity at this tournament, it’s the first time that we’ve had three female ambassadors and two males.

Bryan Habana: HSBC provides good visibility and exposure, not just to the people involved in the game, but the brand is fundamentally involved in driving the game forward.

You can imagine some of the discussions that went on in the HSBC offices – like “We’ve had the likes of George Gregan, Brian Driscoll, Jonathan Davies, and Gavin Hastings, Bryan Habana” and to send more women ambassadors and for HSBC to be making decisions that are profoundly impactful and offer that visibility and exposure is huge. 

They are giving women the same opportunities, and I think what HSBC has done particularly in this tournament, speaks volumes for listening as a brand, and the vision for the future of the game, but also their vision for the future of the world. And long may that continue.

World Of Opportunity Programme – HSBC

Nolli Waterman: One of the messages that we always tried to send as ambassadors is to say that if you’re given an opportunity, take it with two hands – you never know where it could lead.  

My background was teaching and in coaching, so being able to tell our own stories of where we’ve come and what we’ve done and what we do now is important.

I’ve just sat with one of the girls in the hot seat, and she was like, “I can’t believe there are so many jobs in rugby. I can’t believe there are so many people that run these things.” So, showing that to them in a real-life example and saying that they can be super academic, and they can still be involved in this if sports is their passion. It just opens up their eyes to all of the different opportunities

It’s something we’re really passionate about and seeing the program develop, I think for me, has been the most successful one in terms of engagement and the variety of young people that we had come to these programs.

HSBC World of Opportunity Program – HK 2023

Bryan Habana: I don’t know if it was done for a specific reason but it was 40%/60% Male/Female and some of the strongest candidates were females. Literally, it was always the girls pushing the other guys and the young women and making the most of the opportunity, which I think was brilliant.

The females really put their best foot forward, and they really made a massive difference in the actual engagement that we had within that session.

Nolli Waterman: They also just get to see us as people – we’re not these megastars. Or say, “Oh, I went to the Olympic Games” or “You know, I’ve raced a cheetah”,  or “I’m a World Cup winner”, or “I’m a Centurion”.

We explained that all of the people in the room were successful, they just found a passion, and just found something we absolutely loved and worked really hard at it.

We were dedicated, we were resilient, and yes we each achieved something special, but at the same time, they can also do that. I think that that’s probably why it’s a pretty powerful program.

Making The Most Of Opportunities In A Post-Pandemic World

I think after the pandemic if people aren’t grabbing things with both hands by now – then nothing will teach people to take the most of opportunities. 

Bryan Habana: The last three years took a lot away from all of us. I have pretty strong views on working from home or remote working because you come to experience events like this. The interpersonal connection you get from human interaction is irreplaceable. 

Not being able to visually react to a person’s facial expression, you have this group of three to six-year-olds who for the last three years are now having to relearn what expressional interaction is.

I love the ability of humans to connect in person. Nolli for example talks about the “water cooler chat” and we have this incredible opportunity to connect on a deeply personal level purely by facial recognition, which I think is brilliant. So it’s good to be back and hopefully, we never get taken back!

Nolli Waterman:  I absolutely agree with Bryan about being around human energy and just being around an environment like this weekend

The energy that comes from smiling comes from eye contact engagement and from a mental health perspective, allowing people to get out and be able to find the confidence to do so again.

I have plenty of friends that have felt quite nervous about getting back into the swing of things. I think we are absolutely relearning things and ways of working and looking at things differently through a different lens of flexible working and what’s important to people.

I also am in the belief that you can’t replace being with somebody – I’m a hugger, so everyone gets hugs.

We would like to thank Nolli Waterman and Bryan Habana for their time and you can follow more of their work on HSBC Sport.

Sevens Rugby News 2023

• Cathay/HSBC Hong Kong Sevens 2023 Delivered On So Many Fronts.
• HSBC Singapore Sevens 2023.
• 2023 World Deaf Rugby 7s World Cup.
• Refereeing Rugby At The Highest Level – Craig Chan & Matt Rodden.